Posts by John Kesler

15

If a scripture can be shown that Jehovah God "changes" his mind then are we to believe anything he says in the bible?

by booker-t in

i have always been taught that jehovah god never changes his mind and he always carries out what he predicts.

then a friend of mine who is atheist showed me a scripture in the bible that caught me totally off guard.

it is in the book of jeremiah.

John Kesler

booker-t:Then a friend of mine who is atheist showed me a scripture in the bible that caught me totally off guard. It is in the book of Jeremiah. I don't know exactly the chapter and verse but it is when Jehovah says if he predicts destruction of a city or people and the people repent then he will relent from the destruction he promised. My friend asked me about Jonah and the people of Niveah and how god changed his mind because they repented. But Jonah told them "40" days Niveah will be destroyed. So what are we to believe if people repent then Jehovah will pospone Armaggeddon? I am not trying to sound "blaspemous" I am just abit confused.

booker T, it sounds like you are referring to Jeremiah 18. If so, then you may want to read the post I made 5-31-12 titled "Yahweh's False Promise About Judah." The issue isn't that Yahweh promised one thing but left open the possibility of reversing course, but that in the case of this passage, one prophet claimed that Judah could avert disaster by repenting, while other texts claim that the wickedness of King Manasseh sealed Judah's fate, even though the righteous King Josiah ruled when Jeremiah made his proclamation. Let me know what you think.

54

Matthew 27:52-53 WTF!?!?!?!

by Cagefighter in

dead people raided jerusalem during the cruxifiction?

how have i never heard this before?

why do i suspect the nwt completely leaves this event out?.

John Kesler

Here is something I wrote on another list when the resurrected-saints percope was discussed in 2007:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan In addition to what Don asks, I'd love to know if (1) there are any texts of Matt that don't have it...

I don't know of any manuscripts missing the entire resurrected-saints pericope, but there is is some evidence that the phrase "after his resurrection" was added later. This point was discussed by Jason Filley on the Errancy list:

Quote:

William L. Petersen, in Helmut Koester's "Ancient Christian Gospels: Their History and Development (or via: amazon.co.uk)." Trinity Press International, London: 1990, pp425,426. Chapter on Tatian's 'Diatessaron.' "Supporting this conclusion [that the Diatessaron preserved an earlier reading than Matthew's gospel -JF] is another apparent Diatessaronic reading in the same passage. It is an omission, and therefore one must be careful in arguing from it, for the argument is e silentio. But in this case, the omission is an active omission, that is, it changes the meaning of the text. Therefore, it elicits greater credence than a passive omission, that is, one which does not alter the meaning of the text. In numerous Diatessaronic witnesses, both East (Ephrem, twice in his Commentary, and in three of his hymns; twice in the Commentary of Ishocdad; and twice in the hymns of Romanos) and West (twice in the Pepysian Harmony; The Heliand), the resurrection and appearance of the risen "dead" occur simultaneously with Jesus' death on the cross. In other words, the Diatessaron omitted the canonical "after his resurrection," which--most bizarrely--delays the appearance of those resurrected for three days! Rather, according to the Diatessaron, the "dead" were raised and revealed there and then as one more sign of the gravity of Jesus' death. The reading of the Pepysian Harmony gives some idea of the scene, according to Tatian:

"And with that, the veil that hung in the temple before the high altar burst in two pieces, the earth quaked, and the stones burst, and the dead men arose out of their graves. And so said the centurion..."
In the canonical account, the delay of the appearance of those resurrected for three days defeats the whole purpose of having them raised when Jesus dies on the cross; but the delay does bring the canonical account into line with Pauline theology, which proclaims Jesus the 'first fruits' of the resurrection (I Cor. 15:20). According to Pauline theology, one cannot have the 'saints' arising before Jesus himself has risen. It would appear the the Diatessaron preserves a more primitive version of the text at this point than does the canonical text, which has been revised to bring it into conformity with Pauline theology."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan ...and (2) what the midrashic source for it is. It stinks of interpolation.

Matthew's source may be Daniel 12:1-2. Both speak of a resurrection of the "many."

Quote:

Daniel:
"At that time Michael, the great prince, the protector of your people, shall arise. There shall be a time of anguish, such as has never occurred since nations first came into existence. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew:
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.

92

Proof that Satan is in control of the WT and THAT is why the new change will come.....

by EndofMysteries in

if anybody ever read the two babylons book, it detailed how christianity became corrupt.

how over time, not on the spot, but slowly changes were implemented, it started with forbidding anybody to read or hold the bible, and only the leader/pope etc could teach, once there was full absolute power, then satan was able to put in anything he wanted to corrupt it all.

i am not going to list the articles and scriptures, everybody can find those, i'm just going to quickly show from the history to now how it's happened and the proof and what is happening now.

John Kesler

Leolaia: Nature is amoral and indifferent to moral concepts. But we humans view nature in moral terms, because it affects us. An earthquake-tsunami disaster is a great evil because it kills people and ruins lives. Theism often works nature into that moral order, e.g. God/the gods/Satan/etc. bring(s) destruction on a people on account of their sins (the Flood story being a classic example of this). But that is motivated by theodicean concerns; if there are supernatural beings who have power over nature, THEN there must be some moral context for how nature operates. I don't see a compelling reason to see nature that way. Nature just is. Black holes, colliding galaxies, asteriod impacts....the universe is a dangerous place and entropy is the universal drive leading from order to disorder; its mindless, its violent, its amoral. Humans are not mindless and we recognize value and worth and a whole host of other concepts (thanks to our intelligent brains) that accord meaning to things like good and evil. The Eden narrative is a pretty good fable illustrating this point. It takes knowledge to perceive good and evil. But if the sun explodes in a supernova and destroys our planet, that would be a horrible evil to us, perhaps the worst evil of all time. But the sun isn't evil; its a physical system that has both beneficial and detrimental effects and it could give life as well as destroy.

Good post, Leolaia. When one realizes that we live in an indifferent universe, there isn't a reason to posit supernatural beings, either benevolent or malevolent. Here are just a few passages that bear out your point.

Amos 4:7-9

7 And I also withheld the rain from you
when there were still three months to the harvest;
I would send rain on one city,
and send no rain on another city;
one field would be rained upon,
and the field on which it did not rain withered;
8 so two or three towns wandered to one town
to drink water, and were not satisfied;
yet you did not return to me, says Yahweh.

9 I struck you with blight and mildew;
I laid waste your gardens and your vineyards;
the locust devoured your fig trees and your olive trees;
yet you did not return to me, says Yahweh.

Deuteronomy 11:13-17

13 If you will only heed his every commandment that I am commanding you today—loving Yahweh your God, and serving him with all your heart and with all your soul— 14 then he will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, and you will gather in your grain, your wine, and your oil; 15 and he will give grass in your fields for your livestock, and you will eat your fill. 16 Take care, or you will be seduced into turning away, serving other gods and worshipping them, 17 for then the anger of Yahweh will be kindled against you and he will shut up the heavens, so that there will be no rain and the land will yield no fruit; then you will perish quickly from the good land that Yahweh is giving you.

2 Chronicles 7:13-14

13 When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command the locust to devour the land, or send pestilence among my people, 14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, pray, seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Zechariah 14:17-19

17 If any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, there will be no rain upon them. 18 And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, then on them shall come the plague that Yahweh inflicts on the nations that do not go up to keep the festival of booths. 19 Such shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to keep the festival of booths.

The last passage is also a good one to use when discussing preterism: when, and how, precisely, was this fulfilled by 70 AD?

20

What did Jesus really mean when he spoke on the mount of olives?

by apocalypse in

be objective.. http://issuu.com/a.s.o.h./docs/olivetdiscourse?mode=window&pagenumber=1.

John Kesler

Leolaia, thank you for your detailed reply. Understanding the original identity of Daniel's fourth beast as Greece and knowing that Babylon is code for Rome in the NT are keys to proper understanding.

Londo111, it's true that ge can simply mean land, but in other instances, it has a broader application. Context is the key. Back up two verses to Luke 21:33, or look at Luke 5:24 as examples.

20

What did Jesus really mean when he spoke on the mount of olives?

by apocalypse in

be objective.. http://issuu.com/a.s.o.h./docs/olivetdiscourse?mode=window&pagenumber=1.

John Kesler

Leolaia:The problem with preterism (especially full preterism) is that adopts an interpretation of the universal eschatological aspects of the apocalypse (specifically, pertaining the Judgment Day) that does not square with the text itself (when taken exegetically) or the interpretive traditions presupposed elsewhere in the NT.

What do you consider examples of "the interpretive traditions presupposed elsewhere in the NT"?

114

The Bible-- Full of Errors And Inconsistencies?

by Recovery in

i noticed in the "magic" thread many former jw's no longer adhere to the bible as the unerring and accurate word of god.

if you feel this way, can you please list any specific reasons/arguments as to why not.

this thread isn't for debating purposes, but simply for listing.

John Kesler

Finkelstein and Leolaia, you may be interested in this lecture from Dr. Mark S. Smith. I did not attend the lecture, but Dr. Smith was kind enough to forward me the class notes that are referred to. If you have the notes, you can follow along as he lectures. Here are some excerpts:

Psalm 104

1 Bless the Lord, O my soul!

O Lord, my God, You are so great!

In splendor and majesty You are clothed, Light on Day One (Gen 1:2)

2 Wrapped in light like a robe.

Spreading the heavens like a tent-curtain, Waters on Day Two (Gen 1:6-8)

3 Putting beams in the waters for His upper chambers;

<snip>

Ancient Near Eastern Sources

Sumerian text from Nippur

picture of primordial reality in this manner:

“An, (being) Bel, made heaven resplend[ent],

earth was in darkness,

the lower world was [invi]sible.”

Creation Story from Babylon (Enuma Elish)

light prior to creation is the god's own light. It appears in Enuma Elish's presentation of the

god Marduk in tablet I, lines 101-104:

101 The son UTU (the Sun), the son UTU (the Sun),

102 The son, the sun, the sunlight of the gods!

103 He wore (on his body) ( lbs £ ) the auras of ten gods,

had (them) around his head too,

104 Fifty fears are heaped upon him.

In these lines, Marduk appears in theophanic light and is called “the sun” and “sunlight” as well as “aura.”

If you, or anyone else for that matter, would like the complete notes, just email me at <[email protected]>.

114

The Bible-- Full of Errors And Inconsistencies?

by Recovery in

i noticed in the "magic" thread many former jw's no longer adhere to the bible as the unerring and accurate word of god.

if you feel this way, can you please list any specific reasons/arguments as to why not.

this thread isn't for debating purposes, but simply for listing.

John Kesler

Leolaia: My analysis in that thread, I think, gives a pretty good account of the variance of length between sources and the reasons for the variance.

I agree. I meant a response that demonstrates that no discrepancy exists.

114

The Bible-- Full of Errors And Inconsistencies?

by Recovery in

i noticed in the "magic" thread many former jw's no longer adhere to the bible as the unerring and accurate word of god.

if you feel this way, can you please list any specific reasons/arguments as to why not.

this thread isn't for debating purposes, but simply for listing.

John Kesler

John's gospel records post-resurrection appearances of Jesus:

John 20:19 19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you.’ John 20:26 26 A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you.’ John 21:1-14 After these things Jesus showed himself again to the disciples by the Sea of Tiberias; and he showed himself in this way. 2 Gathered there together were Simon Peter, Thomas called the Twin, Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two others of his disciples. 3 Simon Peter said to them, ‘I am going fishing.’ They said to him, ‘We will go with you.’ They went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing... 14 This was now the third time that Jesus appeared to the disciples after he was raised from the dead. Notice that John 21:14 explicitly says that the appearance by the Sea of Tiberias in Galilee is the third appearance of Jesus, and this one occured over a week after the resurrection, since we are told that the second one was a week after the first. But what about the appearance in Matthew 28, which is clearly intended by that author to be the first post-resurrection appearance of Jesus? Matthew 28:1-7a, 10, 16-17 After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And suddenly there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord, descending from heaven, came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 For fear of him the guards shook and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, ‘Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples, “He has been raised from the dead, and indeed he is going ahead of youto Galilee; there you will see him.” 10 Then Jesus said to them, ‘Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.’ 16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted.

114

The Bible-- Full of Errors And Inconsistencies?

by Recovery in

i noticed in the "magic" thread many former jw's no longer adhere to the bible as the unerring and accurate word of god.

if you feel this way, can you please list any specific reasons/arguments as to why not.

this thread isn't for debating purposes, but simply for listing.

John Kesler

I have never seen a satisfactory response to the discrepancy involving the length of the Israelites' Egyptian sojourn.

63

Powerful questions to DEBUNK the flood of Noah's day

by Black Man in

jw
friends

just like in another thread a saw, the best way to deal with my jws is not debating or arguing, but instead posing questions for them to answer or not answer.

i want to come up with specific questions relating to the 'global flood' that completely debunk it.

what say you, jw.net?.

John Kesler

You may encounter some local-flood proponents, who argue that the flood wasn't worldwide. I'll include some things that disprove that option. There are various problems with this idea, of course: Why build a large ark rather than simply have Noah and his family migrate to an area that wouldn't be flooded? How could water cover the highest mountains of any area for months and not flood the adjacent area? But the one I want to focus on concerns birds.

Genesis 7:1-4, 21-23 reads as follows in the NRSV: 7:1 Then Yahweh said to Noah, ‘Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you alone are righteous before me in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and its mate; and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and its mate; 3 and seven pairs of the birds of the air also, male and female, to keep their kind alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For in seven days I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.’ 21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all human beings; 22 everything on dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. 23 He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, human beings and animals and creeping things and birds of the air; they were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those that were with him in the ark. These passages seem pretty clear-cut: Yahweh flooded the whole world, so representatives of each animal, including birds, had to be preserved. This is born out in Genesis 8, where the animals disembarked: 15 Then God said to Noah, 16 ‘Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons’ wives with you. 17 Bring out with you every living thing that is with you of all flesh—birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth—so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.’ 18 So Noah went out with his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives. 19 And every animal, every creeping thing, and every bird, everything that moves on the earth, went out of the ark by families. If the local-flood theorists are correct, and only an area of Mesopotamia was flooded, then why take any birds aboard the ark? Wouldn't birds be able to fly to nonflooded areas? We know specifically of two birds that were taken aboard the ark: the raven and the dove (Genesis 8:6-12). Since all birds were taken aboard "to keep their kind alive," then local-flood theorists must believe that in the over 1,000 years from creation to the Flood (keep in mind that Noah himself was 600 when the Flood came! Genesis 7:6, and see the Genesis-5 genealogy), neither ravens nor doves had populated areas beyond Mesopotamia, and thus had to be preserved. Consider also that Noah would only need to take aboard birds from areas that got flooded. These birds would have to adapt to a nonflooded area when let off the ark, which means that they would have to adapt to another local ecosystem, which means that they would have been just fine migrating. If they repopulated the post-Flood area, then their local ecosystem would have been completely changed by the Great Flood anyway. And here is a problem with the flood story in general, posted by someone on another list that I participate on:

How did Noah know the sex of all those critters? Who can tell if a snake is male or female? Although some birds have sexual dimorphism some do not. Unless you are an expert naturalist, how can you tell which is a male if males and females look alike? Even worse, who would know if a scorpion or a spider was a male or female? Also, some species of scorpions reproduce parthenogenetically and I wonder how one could find a male?

But there I go again forgetting that we only need one "kind". Spiders and scorpions are both arachnida so the 1,700 or so species of scorpions and the 40,000 species of spiders would have evolved from the same arachnida "kind". But we still have a big problem. As far back as the 1st Egyptian Dynasty things like spiders and scorpions were clearly distinct "kinds" and not significantly different then than they are now. But the1st Egyptian Dynasty began about 3,000 BC, which is about 5,000 years ago and Genesis tells us that earth was created about 6,000 years ago. The flood was at least 1,000 years after creation week so there is no time left for these very different species to have evolved. I think we need another bunch of miracles here.